Red Post Collection: More on Rammus "TU", Tentative 3.13 Ahri discussion, 3.13 Zyra context, and MORE!

Posted on at 6:57 AM by Moobeat
Still recovering from that MASSIVE PBE update last night? No worries - I've got plenty of red posts cure what ails you! Check out the post for updates to Xerath, Heimer, and 3.13 PBE discussion threads, more info on the Rammus texture updates that popped up on the PBE, ricklessabandon with a ton of discussion on the tentative 3.13 Ahri changes, CertainlyT with context on the tentative 3.13 Zyra changes, Meddler discussing Syndra, and more!
Continue reading for a ginormous collection of red posts, strainght from the League of Legends forums!

Xerath, Heimer, and 3.13 PBE Discussion

In order to not have another massive Godzilla thread, I've updated both the Heimer and Xelnath threads to include a TON of red posts following their PBE debut! Be sure to check 'em out if you're interested!

Like wise, I've also updated the 3.13 PBE post with oodles of relevant posts:

You'd also be well off to take a second look at the 3.13 discussion thread as MANY of the posts below reference the changes mentioned in it.

Regarding the Rammus Texture Updates

If you peeked into our 10/10 PBE update post, you have noticed Rammus received a few texture updates!
This is the updated Molten Rammus skin - click here to check out the others.
IronStylus popped up in a forum thread about it, saying:
"Relaunch Team Secret Texture Upgrade Ninja Initiative #1: Successful!"
IronStylus also commented on the surprise Rammus texture updates by saying:
"I shall pass that on to the team at large. The texture updates are really a result of our dedicated 3D artists taking some time to give champions who don't need an overhaul some love. You'll most likely see more of these sneaking in here and there. We don't want to make too much of a big deal because they're more like us doing polish work and cleaning house rather than doing something that needs big fanfare like a complete VU."
He continued, responding to someone asking if they this means there will not be a "proper VU" for Rammus in the future:
"Good question. Honestly, I was surprised how fairly solid our little Armordillo is. In this case, a little polish went a long way. I personally see these adjustments as what's needed for Rammus as he stands. There's no giant theme shift he needs, there's no changing gameplay that needs to be visually represented, he just needs cleanup. Maybe in the future, if some compelling situation arises, we might shift him, warranting a full VU. I don't really foresee that happening though, at least not any time soon. For now he's ok."
He also explained that there are many other champions on this "Texture Updates" list:
"There's a whole list of champions which sort of constitute a lower tier in terms of priority and work needed for VU. This equates to "TU's", or Texture Updates. Those are champions whose models, rigs, animations, and other framework are in pretty decent shape, and all they need is some geometry tweaking on the model and texture polish for quality and readability's sake. Yes, Miss Fortune would be one of those. Some others might be Lux, Vayne, and a few other recent-ish champions built on solid foundations. Such TU's would be easier to do, low-risk and be able to be peppered into our larger scale effort to overhaul champions that have a heavier work load attached to them."
When asked how much time it took to do something like this Rammus TU , he noted:
"Depends. The Rammus one, since it wasn't a full blown operation, more of a labor of love for some of our artists for a while, took longer than it would have to just focus the entire Relaunch team onto such a TU. That said, we only have a certain number of texture artists. They're going to have stuff to do across the board on a number of different assets at any given time. Work like this seems to be be best served when it's not the absolute priority, and as I said, mixed into the various levels of work we do on any particular champion.

We have a TU list also. As per usual, if you look though characters that have fairly solid rigs and animations, you can guess which ones will most likely be in line for a TU rather than a full blown VU or relaunch. "

As a little extra, he also commented:
"Kassadin is high on the priority list for a full VU."

3.13 Ahri Discussion 

Following the current PBE Ahri balance changes and context threads shared in this post, ricklessabandon returned for a ton of discussion on Ahri and the upcoming changes!

( There are a lot of replies, I tried to group them up based on if he was discussing a specific ability or not! )

On the reduction of her ult duration ( from 10 seconds down to 7 seconds ), he commented:
"numbers will be easier to talk about once she's playable, but the 7 seconds is still a very wide window—you can do all three dashes, orb of deception, and fox-fire within the 4-second window of charm's damage amp. going by our tests so far, 7 seconds is quite comfortable even if you want to space dashes out for lich bane procs (for example).

if anyone feels like this reduction cripples a certain playstyle, i'm interested in hearing about it."
Responding to comments on no longer being able to do a second ability rotation with this reduced duration, ricklessabandon commented:
"i currently associate 'multiple rotations within an ult' with ahri's patterns later in the game (once fox-fire is maxed out), but let's keep an eye on this together—i'll be spectating/playing games and taking feedback, you guys play her a bit on the pbe and give feedback. if this hurts a healthy playstyle of ahri's (and i think that her kiting patterns are healthy) then i'm happy to tune/revert this change. :3"
He continued:
" i understand the apprehension of time pressure here, but my feeling is that ahri players won't feel this much at all (i'll definitely be watching for it though). the goal here was alleviate some of the idle pressure ahri exerts when taking no action after her initial ult cast. in other words, once ahri uses her first dash her opponents are forced to change their behavior/mentality in response while considering her likely next actions. currently this lasts up to 10 seconds, which is a respectable amount of power from passivity."

He also commented on the new numbers for Fox-Fire on the same target, saying:
"a '3-hit against one guy' fox-fire now does 80% of the old damage without charm, and 96% of the old damage with, so not quite as drastic as 40% but it is noticeable. one cool thing about maxing fox-fire first now is that the healing from essence theft isn't based on spell damage, so you can still get big heals from using orb of deception on a full minion wave even if your primary damage spell is fox-fire. so, the spell lost a bit of its best-case intense pressure damage in exchange for a better healing pattern. i encourage you to try it out and let me know how it plays out. :3"
He continued:
"if you hit with two fox-fires, you're doing ~86% of the old damage without charm, and 104% of the old damage with charm. basically, multi-hit damage without charm was very intentionally nerfed, and multi-hit damage with charm is around the same amount of damage (+/- depending on one extra hit or two).

do you have any other questions about the mechanics/numbers of the change? if you're concerned about how it plays in game, then i'd really love to hear your thoughts after playing her a couple of times. :3"
He also commented on why Ahri's W now acts as a multi target spell for spell vamp and slow purposes:
" so, part of the reasoning for this change was that the initial impetus to tag the spell as single-target was for the interaction with her passive. since the passive was reworked, the need for the change went away and we were left with a spell that just broke the rules for no reason. after reading several posts responding to the change though, i feel like a better course of action is to fully support this interaction and call it out in the tooltip (i.e., allow it to be more effective with rylai's crystal scepter) and keep it as a standard consideration for ahri's balance state."
On the previous comment, he later reiterated:
"oh, you might have missed it in my wall-of-text reply but i said i was going to fully support the rylai's interaction as it is on live. in other words, i'm going to revert the change i made that changed the targeting flag from single-target to aoe."

When asked if Ahri's charm amplifies DFG as well as her abilities, ricklessabandon noted:
"ahri's charm amplifies all of her magic damage, so items like dfg, lich bane, liandry's torment, etc all deal 20% more damage. in regards to doom (dfg's debuff): charm does stack with doom, so ahri's magic damage will be increased by 44% against that unfortunate target afflicted by both."

He also shared the new values for her passive compared to the old values, saying:
"hmm… i think something is off with your calculations (though it could be me) since i have something different—looks like you've calculated the passive as half of what it should be. old values on a wave of 6 minions (assuming you hit each twice) would be something closer to: 
~55 + ~46% ap @ rank 1 (level 1)
~194 + ~46% ap @ rank 5 (level 9) 
new values would be:
36 + 108% ap @ rank 1 (level 1)
132 + 108% ap @ rank 5 (level 9)

going off of that, the break-even point for orb of deception at level 9 is 100 ability power—anything past that and the new passive is healing for more."

Responding to the overall comments in there thread, he explained his thoughts on some of the common points being made - DFG, forcing an assassin Ahri playstyle, and the nerfs to her passive:
"okay, mostly kind of caught up on reading various threads/posts and have some time to respond. before getting into some more specific replies, i did want to comment on a couple of common sentiments: 
"dfg is the problem!" - to be honest, i really don't mind ahri using dfg. i've been a fan of her assassin playstyle for a while (it was fairly common in ogn back when jayce and twisted fate were perma-banned so i've seen it a lot), and i'm fine with the trade-offs she makes by rushing the item. i'm not saying that the item itself is perfect and/or immune to scrutiny, but i am saying that there isn't some sort of magic combination of ahri + dfg that needs to be broken up. the changes i've planned out for her are meant to work well both with and without deathfire grasp in her inventory. 
"now you're forcing the assassin ahri playstyle" - there are some specifics in the replies below, but forcing/favoring assassin ahri isn't in line with the goals i've laid out and i currently don't think that the assassin play patterns are actually favored over her other styles (again, pending a couple of changes i mention below). as i've mentioned in previous posts in this thread, i'm interested in hearing out any concerns about specific playstyles that may be crippled by my changes. 
"the nerfs to her passive seem okay" - there's a bit of math behind this of course, but the changes to the passive with the current numbers are currently an overall buff with a focus on the late game. two major factors here are the the new passive isn't affected by the opponent's magic resist (which matters more later in the game) and that the heal's base amount comes from champion levels instead of ability rank."

As for how these changes will play into Ahri's role on Dominion, he noted:
"thanks for this—i'll chat with manwolfaxeboss about these changes in detail. insight into how she plays on summoners rift and/or twisted treeline is super valuable, so please feel free to post more if you get a chance to play her on the pbe."

He also mentioned plans for the other top-tier assassin's, saying:
"quick reply to this since i've seen it pop up a lot in this thread: 
the team felt it was best to look at the 'top-tier assassins' as a set, and as such will have changes for ahri, fizz, kassadin, and zed in the 3.13 patch (assuming plans don't change). i specifically went out of the way to make sure ahri's changes would be among the first to go on the pbe since i really wanted as much time as possible for tuning and gathering feedback given my desire to start with aggressive changes and work back from there. anyway, that's why everyone has seen ahri's changes in isolation and why i've been eager to hear from everyone. :3"
On Kassadin specifically, he noted:
"sure thing. i handed off the kass changes to another member of the team—ahri demanded quite a bit of time and i wouldn't have had enough time to properly work on kass as well as both ahri and morgana. current plan is still 'kassadin changes in 3.13' (last i checked) so unless that changes you guys should get more info on that really soon."

3.13 Zyra change discussion

Continuing on the 3.13 train, CertainlyT commented on the Zyra changes highlighted in the 3.13 PBE context thread, discussing how the effect Mid Zyra vs Support Zyra :
"Zyra's more than viable mid lane, although one who has greater matchup variance than our more commonly picked mids like Ahri. If Zyra doesn't feel strong there, that's a problem with her design and I'll take full blame.

That being said, these changes were focused on improving her play pattern (as and against) overall. The base damages we reduced will hurt mid Zyra much less than duo lane Zyra. The seed usability improvements will help both mid and bot Zyra feel like they have greater control over their champion. All in all, I don't see 3.13 as hurting mid Zyra much."

Elsewhere, he also posted a big ole' pile of context on these Zyra changes as a whole:
"Hey everybody -- Here is some additional context on the proposed changes. I'll just bullet point it: 
• Q and E both spawn seeds placed at the moment of detonation more reliably. This is especially in the presence of latency -- something our pros play without but you play with. Ever notice that you combo and are left with a seed on the ground after? That is largely resolved. 
• E spawns Vine Lashers in a wider band around it, allowing you to create more effective zoning walls with good mouse movement or pre-placement of seeds. 
• R hastens plants grown after it has been placed, allowing you to ult at a position in an emergency and then turn the fight around and unload on your opponent(s) if they fail to escape. 
• Deadly Bloom at 800 range and Rampant Growth at 850 allows you to place seeds in the outer portion of the ring created by max range Deadly Blooms. Combined with the reliability changes above, you can now more effectively cast Q or E, wait a moment to see which way the enemy moves, and create a plant at the edge of the spell closest to them. These optimizations are really satisfying and embody the gameplay I intended on release. Overall, her playmaking potential has gone up to compensate for her raw numerical power going down. 
• It’s not on PBE yet, but I plan on improving the self-only indicators of who your plant is targeting (the triangle with downward arrow above enemies’ heads) facilitating finer plant micro-management using your basic attack. 
• 10% CDR is worth 322 gold. If you maxed W last, the CDR nerf is roughly the gold equivalent of losing 3 AP at level 2, 6 AP at level 14, and 0.75 of an Amp Tome at level 18. Common mid builds overcapped CDR by a hefty margin making the effective cost even less. The change was long overdue given season 3's improved access to cooldown reduction. 
• Reduced plant base damage at early levels is focused on Zyra's power as a duo laner. She levels much more slowly and leans more heavily on base damage from the support position. 
• The duration of Stranglethorns' stun on live was never intended to be this length. She still retains a gigantic amount of CC, even for a control mage. Even after these changes, she still brings 3 seconds of AOE immobilization/stun to set up further crowd control, such as Vine Lashers. 
• The small reduction in Q base damage is mostly targeted at competitive support Zyra – they take Q first and harass their opponents out of lane, since it is nearly unavoidable if you cast it when the enemy AD begins a last hit. It’s also the change in which I have the least confidence, so keep tabs on this one. 
• I am not interested in "compensation," only in giving all Zyra players more opportunities to distinguish themselves, because I think Zyra is also too strong as a mid laner. That she is still highly successful in that slot in an assassin-filled meta-game (her natural counter) speaks for itself. The fact that LCS teams generally choose to run her bot lane doesn't make her mid lane case immune from balance considerations. If you enjoy Zyra enough to take advantage of the gains this patch provides, you'll still find great success in mid..

Discuss away!"

3.13 Corki CDR Changes

Currently on the 3.13 PBE, Corki is set to receive a change to the way CDR functions for his ultimate. The 3.13 Tentative PBE context thread lists the change as
" Cooldown between missile shots can no longer be reduced by Cooldown Reduction (Cooldown Reduction still affects how quickly you gain missile ammo)"
CertainlyT stepped in to offer an explanation, saying:
"Statikk can comment more articulately about the change, but due note that Corki's ammunition still refills more rapidly as you build CDR. The change simply causes the cooldown between rocket casts to not scale with CDR. 
This makes CDR on Corki reduce the time between engagements and refill rockets more quickly when you are hovering between 0 and 1, rather than doing all of that plus increasing your burst damage output. It feels similar to our treatment of Cassiopeia's Twin Fang, which also does not cool down faster with CDR when used on a poisoned target.

As an avid AP Corki player myself, I'm actually looking forward to the changes as the revised Q is a much more interesting spell. Plus the CDR change on R, while a net power reduction, increases the reliability of Lichbane procs."

Meddler looking for PBE Feedback on Zigg's Q

There are currently some chanes to Ziggs' Q being tested on the PBE and Meddler is looking for your feedback on them!
"Hey all. 
The current patch on the PBE has a change to Ziggs' Q targeting where, if the target location is out of range, he'll cast in that direction, rather than walking into range of that location to cast. Effectively this means Bouncing Bomb acts somewhat like a line skillshot. The intent here is to make it easier to throw Bouncing Bomb at max range, particularly in hectic fights when trying to stay as safe as possible while still putting out damage.

Feedback would be much appreciated on this change, particularly whether you found it overall harder or easier to use, particularly during the early laning phase and during late game sieges or teamfights. Would also be great to know if you were playing with Quickcast (smartcast) or regular cast."
He continued:
"Yeah, that's the case that may be penalized here. Based off internal testing our feeling is that the hit there's small compared to the benefit gained r.e. quickly throwing max range bombs, particularly since it's post laning phase that Ziggs struggles a bit and that's where this change should help him most. Internal testing's a fairly small pool of players/number of games though, so PBE feedback can be really valuable when testing this sort of change."

Meddler responding to Syndra Feedback

Meddler took time to respond to a summoner's request for Syndra quality of life changes, bug fixes, and staight buffs, explaining how the 3.13 PBE changes plan out with the requests and sharing his over all thoughts on the rest.

[There's 3 bugs I've noticed with her: 
1) If getting cced while holding a ball with your W it will go on on coldown even though your character is still holding the ball.
2) When casting Q/E with a certain timing your ball will just vanish (hard to reproduce). 
For the the QOL changes: 
1) Currently her E range (the one that affects balls) is a very few units (something like 50?) under her Q max range would be nice if it could go that little bit further. 
2) Syndra doesn't need to stop to cast her Q/W but her E makes her briefly stop (not sure about her) would be nice if it worked the same than her Q/W. 
3) When holding something with W it doesn't go on CD until you throw it, either add it to the tooltip or fix it. 
For the part That could be considered buffs. 
1) Shyvana's passive that was somewhat similar to Syndra's got put into her ability tooltip, she should receive the same treatment and be given some kind of passive. 
2) Increase the ratio on her E a little? Currently siting at 0.4 and has the longest CD of her normal abilities. ]
Hey, thanks for the thoughts and nicely timed on the thread, actually got a few Syndra tweaks in the patch that hit the PBE at the moment. To touch on your quality of life suggestions: 
1. Range increase on E so that casting Q at max range and then E results in the Q getting knocked away. Yup, quite agree, and that's one of the changes that just hit PBE - the interesting mechanical skill test of the spell's the timing/aiming, not learning to avoid a spell trap range where you just shouldn't cast for this combo. 
2. Removing cast times always feels great, it also strips out a warning for the enemy and an opportunity for the enemy to try and capitalize on. That's not always a big deal, on a multi target hard CC spell with a fast moving, passthrough missile it's really important however. 
3. How much information to put on a tooltip's a judgement call, since each additional sentence you add dilutes the key message of the ability. In cases like this where the behavior is easily observable, the tooltip already has a couple of parts to it and the spell is not an ultimate we opt to leave out that sort of information as a result. 
Regarding suggested buffs: 
1. Syndra's passive effects could be removed and, where appropriate, some of that power added into the base skills and the rest of that power budget used for a new passive. The route I'd like to explore when time permits is making the rank 5 effects more distinct from the base skill, changing the way the spell is used/thought about a bit (the original goal with the passive and something that didn't work out). 
2. If Syndra does need to be buffed it's very unlikely additional damage is what we'd offer her. Could shift some damage from another part of her kit to increase the E ratio, that would probably result in her burst remaining similar but her sustained damage falling, given as you point out the E's the longest CD of her basic abilities. 
And finally the bugs:
1. Can't reproduce the W going on CD with a sphere still to throw myself. Any particular situations you're seeing this occur under? 
2. Spheres sometimes not stunning despite clearly passing through an enemy is something I believe is fixed in the build now on the PBE (the process that checks for collisions would occasionally end before the sphere got to the end of its journey, it should now always run the full duration). If you keep seeing it occur after that patch goes live please do let us know, if it's not fixed would love to make sure it is.

3. Haven't observed the Q vanishing when Q/E are cast in quick succession myself. Would love to fix it though if can get repro steps."

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