Update: Added in a TON of red posts and discussion! The Heimer update is also now on the PBE - check it out here.
Along with Xerath, Heimerdinger's rework is also coming to the PBE!
Along with Xerath, Heimerdinger's rework is also coming to the PBE!
Continue reading for more info and a tentative change list!
Here's 20thCenturyFaux with the details:
"Heimerdinger is ready for PBE. PBE is ready for Heimerdinger. It is time.
Heimerdinger players have done an excellent job of showing us what makes them passionate, and our goal with the rework was to make those elements more interactive. To that end, reinventing the Revered Inventor meant adding depth of play to all of his active skills.
Heimerdinger’s new tools are loaded with opportunities to express skill, both in ability mastery and in overall strategy. He has the tenacity to recover from his failures and the power to define the game with his successes. From his first tinkering to his fiftieth victory, Heimerdinger’s power scales with creativity.
Passive: Techmaturgical Repair Bots
- Heimerdinger gives nearby allied champions and H-28G Evolution Turrets bonus health regeneration per 5 seconds.
- 10/15/20/25/30 Hp5
Q: H-28G Evolution Turret
- Places a Turret at target location. Turret attacks and beams prioritize Heimerdinger’s targets and enemies attacking Heimerdinger. Their Health increases with Heimerdinger’s champion level and they shut down eight seconds after he moves out of the area.
- Heimerdinger generates a Turret Kit every 24/23/22/21/20 seconds (modified by CDR), and can hold up to 1/1/2/2/3 Kits at once.
- Mana Cost: 20
H-28G Evolution Turret Stats
- Cooldown: 1
- Health: 150 (+25 / Champion level)
- Attack - Cannon: 15/22/29/36/42 (+0.125 AP) magic damage
- Attack - Beam: 50/75/100/125/150 (+0.5 AP) magic damage in a line, 12 second cooldown
- Maximum Turrets: 3
W: Hextech Micro-Rockets
- Unleashes a barrage of 5 rockets that converge towards your cursor and fan out past it. Each rocket deals 60/90/120/150/180 (+0.45 AP) magic damage.
- Enemies that are hit by more than one rocket take 20% magic damage for each additional rocket, max 105/160/215/270/325. Minions take 60% instead.
- Targeting the rockets closer to Heimerdinger increases their spread.
- Mana Cost: 70/80/90/100/110
- Cooldown: 11
E: CH-1 Electron Storm Grenade
- Hurls a grenade that deals 60/100/140/180/220 (+0.6 AP) magic damage to enemy units and slows their Movement Speed by 35% for 2 seconds. Enemies in the center of the blast are also stunned for 1.25 seconds.
- Mana Cost: 85
- Cooldown: 18/16/14/12/10
- Heimerdinger's next basic spell is free and has bonus effects.
- H-28Q Apex Turret: Places a Turret that deals 90/110/130 (+0.33 AP) magic damage with its cannon and 225/300/375 (+0.8 AP) magic damage with its beam for 8 seconds.
- Hextech Rocket Swarm: Fires 4 waves that deal 135/180/225 magic damage each. Champions and Monsters hit by multiple rockets take reduced damage, max 550/750/950 (+1.8 AP).
- CH-3X Lightning Grenade: Throws a grenade that discharges three times, dealing 150/200/250 (+0.6 AP) magic damage each time. Both the stun and slow areas are larger and the slow is improved to 80%.
- Cooldown: 100/80/60
- Mana Cost: 100
Our goal with these changes is to give Heimerdinger the tools he needs to keep being Heimerdinger, while making him a deeper, more satisfying champion to play as and against. The essence of Heimerdinger is very well-explored by his passionate fanbase, and happily has nothing to do with the elements that made him toxic: a pattern of non-engagement and low skill differentiation.
For instance, auto-aiming rockets feel good but can’t play with the other guy in creep waves. Switching that to a variable “rocket shotgun” skillshot lets Heimerdinger do more cool things while giving the other guy a chance to play too.
The Revered Inventor is a challenging theme to get right, but any good blueprint rests atop a mountain of crumpled almost-theres. We’ve learned a lot from the journey and from feedback players have given us on earlier iterations. Heimerdinger is stronger for it, and it’s our hope that this time on PBE will polish him even more.
One last thing: RAISE YOUR TURRETS!"
20thCenturyFaux had a few extra details he mentioned in a later post:
"There’s a couple things in particular I’d like folks to watch out for: I just added a hit-confirm sound that plays for Heimerdinger only, even if he’s off screen, to let him know when his turrets are shooting a champion. It should help him use them as wards and let him know how his turrets are doing in a cluttered teamfight, but I have some fear it might be annoying. I borrowed a sound from Katarina for the prototype—if it proves to be awesome, I’ll get a Heimerdinger sound for it, otherwise I’ll just kill it.
The other thing is a squirrely bug with RQ where the turret shoots an ice ball instead of its cool projectile and bugs out when its duration expires. Quite nasty, actually—it creates a zombie turret that does no damage but slows people, is invincible, and lasts forever. I really hope this is fixed, but if you see it, please let me know!"On the turret beams and when they would fire, he had this to say:
"The beam cooldown is indeed modified by CDR. They fire on their own or when Heimerdinger attacks someone / hits them with a grenade, but will attempt to save their beam for champions or if they feel threatened by a creep wave. Whether the beams fire in sync is mainly about when they get triggered."
A player mentioned it was difficult to get both turrets down with Heimer's old kit when jumped, and he responded:
"I quite liked the idea of Xypherous's RQ, but it meant Heimerdinger had no ultimate turret to use in cases where he already did have his three turrets out. The big turret doesn't count against the turret limit, but it's still rowdy enough to work in the "caught outside the nest" case, so it's my hope that it's the same thing but better ^^
Magic pen works on turrets, and Rylai's / Liandri's / Spellvamp works on turret beams but not turret autoattacks."
A player asked if the turret created by Heimer's new ult will disappear after 8 seconds, and he answered:
"It disappears, but does not count toward the 3 turret max while it's around."
On the new turret targeting, he answered:
"I spent a lot of effort making sure the abilities felt like upgraded versions of the same spells. It's about raising Heimerdinger, not changing him :D
Yep, the rockets are first enemy hit."A player asked if there were any stat differences on the turret created by Heimer's ultimate, and 20thCenturyFaux responded:
"Its damage is listed under UPGRADE!!!, its beams charge twice as fast, and it has a big bag of extra HP compared to normal turrets."On Heimer's new turret beams, he answered:
"Turrets start with something like 70% beam charge, so at the moment it's two beams max, but only time and playtesting will tell!"A player asked about Heimer's Ult+E, and he replied:
"If H is Heimerdinger and O is grenade detonation, it's like
H -----> O->O->O
and it damages and slows or stuns the things it hits. You can be CC'd more than once by it, but you only take damage once since damage is the other spells' job."20thCenturyFaux talked about Heimer's passive for a little:
"The passive is a bit trickier. I tried some spicy passive ideas, but it always meant compromising on the complexity/power of the other spells--people only have so much attention they can pay, and if the passive is taxing mindshare that could be going to turrets, I get a lot less comfortable.
There's always more work that can be done, and if an awesome + simple + low power passive idea comes out of PBE I'll jump on it instantly ^^"Does Heimerdinger still have his swagger?
"VERY YES. It is a sin against Heimerdinger to even contemplate adjusting his swagger."
20thCenturyFaux talked about Heimer's kit a bit, then about how it's intended to have Syndra pick up and toss Heimer turrets:
"Each RE explosion does slow/stun ^^
And good eye, W does have an unusually large mana cost. I went with that because it still has pretty huge range, and Q only costs 20 mana--the large cost on W serves to both keep Heimer sane in lane and to make sure he still values mana later on.
I had to mark so many "Syndra can throw heimer turrets" bugs as "working as intended", you have no idea hahahaha
If we find out it really sucks I can do something about it, but where I stand now it seems to me that Syndra tossing turrets is awesomer than hell . It only really hurts Heimer if he doesn't have other options, but I think we've done a good job of making sure he has tons and tons of options with this rework."
He also talked about Heimer's autoattack animation:
"I fiddled some with his base stats, but mainly to make his autoattack feel more like a wrench. There are some other minor changes, but nothing as drastic as tankiness / speed.
The turret AI is much more sophisticated. If there's interest I'll do a bigger post on it later, but for now I haven't got time xD"
A player asked, "Will his turret get more resistances/health than before? Are his rank up effects like aoe damage and mres shred still there? And last but not least: Do turrets still have increased attack speed for a few seconds after placing them?" And he answered:
"Yes, no, and no, respectively ^^"A player asked if Heimer's model has been updated, and he answered:
"Model is unchanged, he has a huge amount of new particles that I made. I hope you guys like them! Also, particle feedback is very much welcome, because I made them I have free reign to fiddle with them."Another player asked why the CD on his ultimate was removed, and was answered as follows:
"Cooldown was an interesting point. I frequently found myself considering putting it back on to make his amount of turrets out more consistent, but at the end of the day, the same reasoning as the passive prevailed: I can't justify putting power into something that's invisible because I want all the power on the cool Heimer-specific things. Everyone gets CDR, but only Heimer gets turrets."A player asked if turret autoattack spellvamp will heal Heimer, and how resistances will scale:
"The spellvamp heals Heimerdinger, and turret resistances scale with Heimerdinger's level."
Someone mentioned that he preferred the old grenade that could harm turrets, and 20thCenturyFaux responded:
"Hehehe, it's easy to underestimate it, but the slow is nothin' to sneeze at--and more importantly, when you catch someone inside the turret nest but don't hit the stun, they still get CC'd in a way that makes the turrets punish them more. On top of that, the slow/stun paradigm lets Heimerdinger follow up with skillshot rockets in a way blind doesn't. All the power on E is loaded into its core function, so it lacks the extra features the other spells have.
That said, this is PBE! We'll find out what works or not by people playing, and we can change stuff accordingly ^^"On making Heimer's ult'ed turrets unmovable by Syndra, he answered:
"I actually scripted this but then reverted it. I can put it back in with the flip of a switch if it turns out to suck too much for Heimer :3"A player mentioned that Heimer's ult was very similar to Karma in the way it was activated, and he responded:
"It's actually quite a bit different from Karma. Heimer's cooldown is much higher and he doesn't get it until 6, which lets me make it far, far more powerful. Karma essentially can weave a big version of a normal spell in with her combo, whereas Heimerdinger can choose one of three ultimate spells at a normal ult cooldown."Another player mentioned that Heimer's ultimate was more like Katarina's old Killer Instincts, and 20thCenturyFaux responded:
"Yup. Three choices instead of two, and huge UPGRADE!!!s instead of little boosts
For example, the RQ turret just rips people apart if they stay by it, and RW can 70-0 someone if they stay put for the whole thing."On adding spell vamp to Heimer's turret shots and slightly modifying his kit, he had this to say:
"Hmm, interesting. It gives the same resistance to mistakes and it doesn't require concentration. It forces you to max Q in lane, but it wouldn't take much fiddling to let you max W too. I'll need time to think, but there's potential here for sure.
For what it's worth, they actually do gain resists per level, just non-linearly. As Heimer leaves the lane phase, their resists bulk up considerably ^^. They might be too squishy even so, of course--that'll be something to watch in PBE testing.After reading a detailed post from a Heimerdinger support player, he had a few comments:
It actually does get a bunch more hp than normal turrets, and in fact is big enough to live through Smite, Consume etc. It might still be too squishy, just like the other turrets, but I figured I'd point it out :3
Thanks for your thoughts!"
"Fascinating read! I must confess the bulk of our testing has been Mid, though we have run a bunch of top / support / jungle Heimer.Someone mentioned that the little nut bolt that hovers around Heimer for his Q stacks could change to match the other skins. 20thCenturyFaux had this to say:
The turret resists do scale, but do so non-linearly--they get their resists after the lane phase, essentially. If they don't, that's a bug and please let me know xD
I must also admit I deliberately designed them to get rekt by ADC (I go into more detail on that a few posts up), but this is from my understanding that support Heimer primarily uses them as wards. That's partly where the "turret attacking champion" global Heimer-only alert sound comes from, actually. I had figured most support Heimers would level the rockets for the glitterlance-type harass.
Is support Heimer turret build your go-to choice? How do you use the turrets, and where do you place them? Do they aggro creeps / get cs?
100% agree that caster minions should not outrange turrets. I thought I had quashed that nonsense, if you're finding caster minions poking your turrets down please let me know. Every time I think I solve it, it comes back. Frustrating!"
"Thanks for the kind words! It's in my power to do special particles for the skins, but I'm not sure I have time / good options for what to use. If I find good options though I'll probably get it in.On damage reduction to Heimer's turrets, he had this to say:
That said, I've heard from players who follow the art bros that Heimer VU is likely, so it's probably more a matter of when than if. I don't have a ton of visibility into that stuff, I've been pretty absorbed into Heimerland for the last quite a while."
"Our ADC playtesters got so mad at me when they couldn't kill the turrets, so much rage you have no idea lolA player mentioned that the attack speed on Heimer's turrets feel slower, so 20thCenturyFaux responded as such:
I had a really hard time figuring out a damage reduction value that wouldn't create "corki shoots turret twice, turret still alive" some of the time :["
"I don't know much about the VU team's doings, I'm afraid. As for the slower attack speed, very intentional! Slowing the attack speed down lets you pick its damage out of a crowd more easily. It also makes it feel bigger, which is cool, and more like a tower, which is awesome."Another player suggested to remove the health bars from Heimer's turrets and instead replace it with a timed-bar found on wards.
"No problem! It was terrifying to take on the task, but at the same time, rewarding to be trusted with the responsibility.When a player commented if 20thCenturyFaux was worried that Heimer players will use the turrets as ward, he said the following:
We talked/thought a lot about the Zyra hp model. In the end, when it works it works well, and when it's too tanky/too squishy Zyra doesn't mind because they're temporary, more extensions of her spells than independent entities. That's the main reason I feel it gets Heimerdinger into trouble.
The weird thing about it is that your damage to the turrets is completely disconnected from your normal damage. Being good against turrets is about having something that cheeses them to death instantly. Garen spin, auto reset, DoT, what have you--there are a lot of ways to pop them super quick. While Zyra doesn't mind, the way Heimer uses his turrets would create some nightmare situations for the Dinger.
The health bar would be extra readable, which would own, but "Dinger can't turret" is one of the biggest problems I wanted to solve with the rework. Balancing hp/resists is way harder, but is much more resistant to future champion abilities and is more fair overall. As long as damage values are balanced and turret hp/resists are balanced, then it'll work, and the only weird special cases are things like Nunu/Cho/Syndra. Much more managable, and even more fun--Syndra tossing a turret is way more :D than insta-popping a ward.
In the end, with PBE time I can find/fix flaws and improve Heimer, but this would be have to be an inherent problem I couldn't fix with existing tools to warrant such a nuclear option. We might find that it's the only way to make them healthy, and if so, I'd revisit the idea. That being said, I think special case damage reduction, such as potentially AE damage reduction, would be healthier overall."
"Worried? I added a special sound to make them better wards ^^
Heimerdinger is all about invention and creativity, imo. I will do anything I can to support as much weird diversity as the Dinger can manage."
20thCenturyFaux finished off his posting spree by saying:
"I'm heading home, tomorrow I'll be focusing on fixing these bugs. Especially sorry about the turret resists, they're a huge component of turret tankiness and Heimerdinger lives or dies on his turrets.
Maintaining this thread took almost all my time today, I'm not sure if I can keep up the same speed of replies tomorrow, but I'll be a regular presence here. Until he goes live, when I'll just move to the GD thread xD
Good night, and thanks for all the awesome replies! The Heimerdinger is raising, and soon, with your help, it will be time to bring him to Live."