Red Post Collection: Ao Shin a long way out, Looking at Lissandra's Passive, and much more!

Posted on at 3:40 AM by Moobeat
This morning's red post collection features Meddler commenting that Ao Shin is still a long way out, FeralPony with more on unpopular items,  Meddler mentioning he's "pondering some passive tweaks" for Lissandra, Guinsoo with more on Fiora, and ricklessabandon with clarifications on Miss Fortune's Q and W.
Continue reading for more information!

Ao Shin Still in the Works

Read up more on Ao Shin here.
Several months ago, a future champion named Ao Shin was previewed on the official League of Legends website. While warned that he was still in very development, the storm dragon concept roused quite a lot of interest in the community and is a champion many summoners eagerly anticipate.

When asked if Ao Shin is still in development, Meddler blew in to comment:
"We're still working on Ao Shin, but for now he's a long way out. Some of our initial ideas for translating his concept into an actual in-game champion haven't quite panned out, so we're continuing to work towards an approach that really hits the bar. He's definitely a champion we want to make happen, but we'd rather take a long time than fail to do his concept justice."

As for a potential dev journal on Ao Shin once he's actually released, Meddler seemed open to the idea:
"Good suggestion, will look into that at the time..

Follow on question: What are you folks most interested in seeing in dev journals? "

Lissandra Tweaks and VU tidbits

Ao Shin wasn't all Meddler stopped by to chat about though, he also commented on what he's been up to lately and what he thinks of Lissandra:
"My time's more focused on working with the other folks on the team and general champion stuff now, so I'm not doing full gameplay design on new champs anymore. Have been tag teaming the design on a champ with Gypsylord though, which I'm really excited to see come to fruition sometime this year.

Lissandra wise I've been pondering some passive tweaks. Have tested out a couple of alternatives that tie in with her need to dive into fights (conditional ice shields). Haven't yet hit on anything that hits the mark, nor determined whether that would be instead of or in addition to her current passive. Going to keep testing, no guarantees that'll go anywhere though."
He continued, expanding on his ideas for Lissandra:
"One of the passives I've been looking at's pretty similar to that actually, though based on a stack building system, with a shield at max stacks, and stacks gained when you CC an enemy (more stacks for champs/less for minions). Current version, due to the CD in particular, runs into some issues where it just happens in team fights, and so there's a lot less gameplay created than I'd like. Going to try tuning it when time permits, see if there's a version that minimizes that issue."

When asked if Tristana or Corki are on the visual update list, Meddler noted:
"From memory they're on the list, but not high priorities at present since others need the work more."
As for a Kassadin VU, he commented:
"A Kass VU will happen at some point, not sure on the timing though."

[Continued ] Unpopular items

Building on the big discussion from the other day, FeralPony continued his discussion on itemization - this time on both popular and unpopular items!

When presented on the idea of adding cooldown reduction to Wit's End, he commented:
"Adding CDR to Wits seems a tad excessive I can't see us adding it to the item as it doesn't really make a lot of sense with the items identity. 
While I like the idea of having a component item that hints at what the item will ultimately become having it be simply a half strength wit's end seems like a lost opportunity. Component items should be universal enough to have multiple offshoots (even if they don't currently). Your suggestion isn't far off from what we were thinking, a smaller AS/Proc item is something we've been discussing as it has a fair amount of room to grow into even the existing item pool. ( Wit's End, Nashor's Tooth  ) but it would need to be able to be used in multiple items."

When asked about a new component item that lead into items like Nashor's Tooth and Blade of the Ruined King, he commented:
"There is a bit of weirdness with the damage type shifting (magic to physical on the upgrade) if it built into BotRK, but yeah it's definitely on the table."
As a follow up, he replied to someone askings why the weirdness of damage shifting is ok for Sheen into Lich Bane:
"It's is certainly a bit weird on Sheen, and has been discussed. As with everything you need to take it on a case by case basis. Not saying it couldn't happen or we wouldn't do it, but generally it's a good principle to avoid weirdness unless you're gaining a lot from that decision. In BotRK's case it might be easy to clean up the recipe without it, and if so I'd like to avoid it but using a mgc damage proc item that turns into botrk switching damage types and conditions (flat -> % Hp) ultimately might be the most elegant solution. Not something I've put much thought space into yet."

As for future items that use the life on hit mechanic seen on Doran's Blade rather than straight lifesteal, FeralPony commented:
"I wouldn't add it to Wit's End but yes lifesteal on hit is a solid mechanic. It's worked out well on Doran's Blade and I can see us using it again."

FeralPony also addressed a series of questions on:

  • A) Plans to expand on Catalyst or Phage as they are currently exclusive component items?
  • B) Plans for Zekes
  • C) Plans to return the old armor shred aura that used to be on Stark's Fevor
  • D) Plans to bring back a mana regen aura

"A) It's very possible we'll use them again in the future when it's appropriate but generally the goal should be focused on the final item, not creating one for the sole purpose of giving it another build option. 
B) It suffers a bit from identity confusion atm. It was made as an item for tanky/fightery people who wanted to contribute more to the team rather than a support item for supports who want to buy a vamp sceptre. 
C) I don't think I personally want to see another armor shredding aura so I don't think I'd make one. That's one of those mechanics that tends to be wayyyyyy more undervalued than it actually contributes, is super invisible and tends to be super binary - feels fairly useless or you get to burst a guy and nobody knows why. I'm not a big fan of flat pen in general as a stat.

D) No plans for a mana regen aura item."
He continued, responding to a set of follow up questions:

  • B) More on Zekes
  • C) Abyssal feels very powerful - are you a fan of it?
  • AA) "On Flat pen, would you rather just see less of it or have pen a purely % stat?

"B) I'd like to shift its role a bit but I'm not sure where we would want it to go. Not something I've given a ton of thought to. Always higher priority stuff I need to focus on. 
C) I'm not a big fan of Abyssal in its current state either tbh. 
AA) On flat pen. I think I'd like to see pen as purely a % stat so it's more obvious what the effects actually do. Flat Pen is essentially AD or AP that has an additional equation behind it adding some slight variance but generally isn't that important. Alternatively % Pen is one of those stats you can grab when being completely shut down by an opponent stacking a particular defensive statistic. % Pen has a much more interesting and obvious purpose.
Shred has a bit more of a distinction since it applies to your team and there is a co-operative/teamplay element in amplifying your allies damage but I think there are better mechanics we can use in those situations. 
There is a ton of fallout if we were to just pull flat pen out currently which makes it risky to do so but I'd be hesitant to add more."

While we've heard plenty about unpopular items over the past couple of days, FeralPony also had a few comments on popular items:
""Overused items" are of course also on the list when we are making these adjustments. There is definitely an aspect of itemization where very powerful items completely eclipse others even if we got some of the underused ones to a balanced state."

When asked about Last Whisper & Void Staff, lifesteal, and BotRK & Ravenous Hydra specially, he commented:
"Yes we're looking into Void Staff and Last Whisper . Of the two I think Whisper is more of an issue due to flat armor values being much higher than mr values but there is a lot of potential fallout with changing these so we need to be careful.

Lifesteal is also on the list, though again, potentially massive fallout depending on the scope of the changes. I think your comparrison of Thirster and WotA is a stretch though. They are functionally very similar items, and you simply would not buy BT if it didn't have lifesteal regardless of it having a lot of AD. You would simply switch to IE instead. 
I do agree with you though that BotRK and Hydra are overloaded atm. I don't think we need to be as drastic as splitting both of them into two separate items but I wouldn't leave some role splitting off the table."

[ Continued ] Fiora Overhaul Discussion

 ( Be sure to check out these posts to catch up on the discussion: 2 )

Guinsoo again returned to the forums to answer more questions on his Fiora rework that we've heard so much about lately.
I've got a simple question about the future Fiora ult and her kit as a whole that I feel is important because it address a fear of mine. Simply: Will W be considered one spell, or two?
Each entire W rotation counts as one spell; similarly each full Q rotation counts as a single spell cast. Not each individual cast.
Guinsoo, what's it like working on old champs instead of designing new ones? Is it easier, harder, or just different? 
It's definitely harder. As you can see, players have strong opinions about their favorite champions, so changing them is never easy. I also think it's more enjoyable - I think there's a more clear design path since you have an idea for how the character plays now and how you might want them to play; that's a lot harder when making a character from scratch, which is like setting sail for the new world without having any idea where it actually is or what it looks like, but you'll know it when you get there.

How is it nothing like Fiora at all? Riposte clearly now blocks spells on top of auto-attacks. With a 0.75 second CD, you might as well be untargetable in a duel (you know, because she's a duelist). It would take multiple people piling on top of her to get through that, and even then she still is gonna have outs, because look at one of those skills listed and the implication of what it does. Disengage, with the implication looking like it's basically reverse Lunge. Lunge in, Disengage out, Riposte->Thrust in, Lunge, Disengage, Lunge, Riposte->Thrust, Disengage, etc. Keeping in mind as well that you don't even need to Riposte every thing the opponent does, because if it's a skillshot, it'll be hard for them to hit you with you dancing all around them. If you're a skilled player, you just classic Blade Waltzed them, except you had to actually hit buttons instead of sitting back and watching it go on its own for a couple seconds so now suddenly you look more pro. Plus you have more control over it. Man, remember when you just really wanted to focus a certain target, but there were multiple opponents there so who Blade Waltz targeted was beyond your control? You can fix that now. 
This is definitely what we're striving for. If you break Blade Waltz down to its primal components, it's a bunch of dashes, it makes you invulnerable, and it does damage. All of those pieces are there on her kit already (with a few enhancements for example to the Riposte).

@Guinsoo I don't know if you'll see this, but I have a simple request: Make Fiora's ult like Riven's, where she gets buffed but also has the ability to use it. 
That's definitely a possibility I'm open to. Maybe a Coup de Grace to end the ultimate. Sounds kinda neat. Filed away.

The reason I bring this up is that, from the ultimate tooltip, it seems like she can't normally parry while moving. While it's an early iteration, that is a dangerous game you play, as ADCs are often just as squishy as they are deadly, and need every once of mobility they can get. If her kit feels overloaded to you in playtesting, I would find another place to stick the cap on her power rather than do it to her mobility 
I don't disagree with this point. The benefit to starting with Riposte as an immobile spell are multifold. First, it makes the Blade Waltz enhancement to it feel super epic; second, it puts maximum counterplay into the opponent's hands to counter out the extreme defensive capabilities in the skill, matching most closely the fantasy of extreme counterplay between Fiora and opponent; and third it allows us to increase the power budget in a successful Riposte to the maximum (because it's harder to pull off).

We are definitely not opposed to making it more mobile if it doesn't work out well, but this is the appropriate starting point, I think. We'd definitely have to make it weaker in terms of amount of damage blocked and/or return Thrust damage dealt if she could normally move during it."

He continued, sharing his opinion on fencing in Runeterra:
"This is definitely the case. I've always thought fencing was about maintaining a maximum defense (so you don't die) while looking for the opening to kill the opponent, so that by fighting in this manner if you don't make any mistakes you would never die and would beat any opponent who made a mistake. But it becomes slightly different in the world of League of Legends where a single sword wound will never kill an opponent. I'd imagine that in that world, fencing would be about being able to inflict maximum damage output while minimizing 'great risk' (since both parties can afford to take a couple hits, I suspect you would no longer opt for a 100% defense strategy)."

Before heading out for the night, he hit up another clump of questions:


First of all welcome back. Second, I love the new idea for the ultimate. I think it is a brilliant change to making her feel more thematically relevant and interesting as well as adding a lot more gameplay. A few things I think everyone is super unclear about right now is the passive which I think would work great having something like what Ashe has with critical striking. Also is there any way we could get rid of the AP ratios on her kit and replace those with ad? I feel like riposte/parrying would have nothing magical about them. 
Yeah to be honest I'm not super stoked with where the (new) passive is at, it's a fairly generic steroid that we plan to replace with something more relevant once we get a good grasp for exactly how her gameplay flows. I have several ideas for different ones I'd like to try out to encourage various target selection/gameplay choices.
Guinsoo, the fighters that you have created, Tryndamere and Kayle, both have a incredible late game power, probably they're like a top 5 champions when the topic is "late game power". 
Is Fiora going to have a powerful late game, or she will be more stronger at early - mid game? What do you think that is better for Fiora? 
That's a good question that I think as a design team we haven't fully solved - what exactly should a melee ADC's power curve look like with respect to time? I think we did make strides with the new Yi and Yasuo. I guess in an ideal world I'd like her to be fairly well rounded, maybe shading slightly weak in the early going and leaning slightly strong in the late game. But at the end of the day I want her to be about her abilities and how well she used them. But this is a very complicated question whose answer will likely change or become more defined over time, as we discover what exactly she's capable of, what feels good, what exactly we want to emphasize about the actual mechanical skills themselves.

Just in regards to managing expectations, since you have become really active suddenly, will this rework be a really long way off? I know I personally am looking forward to it, so here's hoping for a soon rather than soon(tm) release. 
I'm not clear about the timeline at all, so I can't even give you a vague "soon™" or "not soon™". I have a meeting about it tomorrow, but I don't think I'll be able to share too many details. At this point I don't even know if she's planned to be tied to an art rework, new VO, or anything like that.

After I combed through 50 pages looking for all my posts, I found the "next Riot post" feature. Lol."

Clarification on Miss Fortune Q & W

Following her kit updates in patch 4.5, ricklessabandon has been strutting around the forums answering questions about the League's favorite Bounty Hunter.

In a thread asking if Miss Fortune's Impure Shots ( W ) passive is a hidden self buff or if it works off the actual debuff on the target, ricklessabandon clarified:
"the closest comparison would be darius's passive stacks. hitting enemies will build up stacks on them (the stacks show up in their buff bar), and you can have any number of enemy units stacked up at a time with their own independent stack counts and expiration timers."
When asked if there is a way to get a visual indicator of W's passive stacks on a target, he noted:
"i've asked about it, but we won't be able to do something like that independently of some kind of visual update (which i totally keep trying to bring up casually as a thing that would be awesome to do). so short answer is that we'll totally look into it once we've allocated artists to working on her, but i have no idea when that would possibly be since it isn't currently on anyone's schedule that i know of."

ricklessabandon also had a few comments on Double Up and how it's targeting works.

When asked to clarify how Miss Fortune's Double Up selects it's second target, ricklessabandon confirmed

no it doesn't
this is from the wiki I even learned from it
The second shot follows a priority order on targets within 500 range:
Enemy champions in a 40° cone with at least one stack of Impure Shots.
Minions and neutral monsters within a 20° cone.
Enemy champions within a 20° cone.
Minions and neutral monsters within a 40° cone.
Enemy champions within a 40° cone.
Enemy or neutral units within a 90° cone. 
The cone starts from the direction you aim 
this is mostly correct! that represents the under-the-hood changes i made to the target selection as part of the balance changes, though i made two small changes before the changes shipped: 
1. the last check is 110° (up from 90°)
2. the ability now also does a very short range check in an even wider cone at the very end, to account for scenarios in which it's hard to tell whether or not a potential 2nd target's center point is within the targeting indicator because the units are adjacent.

the tl;dr is that double up tries to bounce as close to straight back as it can, and it will prioritize champions within a small cone if you have them tagged with impure shots."

As for how important utilizing the second hit of Miss Fortune's Q in lane is, ricklessabandon commented:
"it should come up very little in lane, which is more or less intended. more savvy miss fortune players will learn to make use of it in the early levels if they feel there is enough benefit to doing so, but outside of that it will likely only manifest after using bullet time."

In response to feedback that Q is not a flexible for hitting minions as it used to be, he noted:
"for most cases it will bounce 55 degrees to the left or right, but if the units are within melee range the bullet can bend up to 80 degrees. the ability should be about as forgiving as before, but without all the randomness. 
as for the attack, q (minion), attack combo you mentioned, that should be easier after the changes since the bounce will actually look for champions with impure shots on them (whereas before it was completely random within one of two area checks). granted, the impure shots check is a fairly tight cone of 40 degrees, but that has shown to be generous enough in the games i've spectated.

all that said, i'm keeping an eye on her. if the bounce mechanics prove to be awkward, i can always make adjustments (though i very much doubt it will go back to being pure random)."

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