Red Post Collection: Gragas and Rengar Rework Followups, Hope for Mage Fortune, Refunds after ( Full ) Reworks / VUs, Sona disabled in URF, and more!

Posted on at 2:27 AM by Moobeat
Tonight's red post collection features follow up discussion threads for both the Gragas and Rengar reworks in patch 4.5,  Riot DryTheRiver with a note about refunding champions/skins after ( full ) reworks / visual updates, information on why Sona is currently disabled in U.R.F, ricklessabandon with a glimmer of hope for "Mage Fortune" players, and more!
Continue reading for more information!

Recent News

The Gragas Followup Thread

Solcrushed has body slammed on to the forums to host a followup thread on the recent Gragas kit rework that hit live with patch 4.5, discussing upcoming changes and responding to summoner feedback.
"This is the thread I hope to consolidate the feedback on the new Gragas. While we won't be making significant balance changes before we have some data, feel free to suggest improvements, builds and lanes! 
Some changes I will be making for the next patch regardless of his balance. 
Gragas will not auto acquire a target after E if he has W buff active.
Gragas E hitbox adjustments to make sure you hit the units you feel you should be hitting
Gragas W autoattack buff lasts 1 second longer"

When asked what lane assignment the rework was intended for, Solcrushed commented:
"Lanes were less of an issue to us when we were doing the rework. We were more concerned about changing his core pattern than we were about lane assignments.

We would expect that his new strengths and weakness suit him better in non-mid lanes but if he is still proven to be a good mid we would be fine with it, provided that the pattern change holds."

As for the removal of mana restore on Gragas's W, Solcrushed commented:
"We felt the mana restore was an unnecessary part of the kit that would be awkward to carry over with the new W cooldown.

Also His mana costs were reduced quite a bit to reflect that he no longer has W mana restore and he will be building less mana items. Maybe they are not enough, we will see."

Rengar Thread of Bolas and Roaring

Riot Scruffy has also set up a feedback thread to discuss the 4.5 Rengar rework:
"Hey all,

The Rengar update is live and we're playing and monitoring his performance a ton on our end. Let's use this thread for constructive feedback. Once we have more data we will definitely be adjusting his power levels up or down if he needs it.

-How are the changes playing for you?
-What builds are you using?
-What lanes are you playing him in?
-Finding any bugs? 
I've already seen a suggestion that I like: his alert to enemies during the ult only appears if they would be able to see him out of stealth, we're already talking about this a lot internally. This seems like a good way for Rengar to optimize a bit more by taking clever paths on ganks and approaches.


When asked for suggested builds, Riot Jag popped in to mention:
"I'm pretty interested in the builds that people try out on him. In playtest a lot of our experienced Rengar players thought Blade of the Ruined King was really strong on him. I think some people will make the classic Trinity/Sunfire/Spirit Visage build still work though."

As for Rengar's reworked Q feeling a bit sluggish, Jag commented:
"Since this version of Q doesn't give you AS it does feel a little slower at first, but we made some small changes to the spell to ensure it feels good. There may be an adjustment period but if it still feels clunky we'll keep an eye on it."

After things started to heat up in the thread, Pwyff jumped in with a reminder on how to have a productive conversation:
"As a quick side-note - if you feel unheard in your feedback that's something we should manage in terms of expectations and discussion. Skarner - regardless if he's in a better place from a game health perspective - sounds like a communications issue with managing and directing the conversation. Alternatively, if the disagreement is crazy weird - some feel Skarner is X and we fundamentally can't have him be X - then that's a DELIGHTFUL CONVERSATION TO HAVE.

This community is toxic
I might get called out for selectively quoting here, but I'd really like to see the landscape as one of feedback (even if passionate feedback) rather than direct character statements and raw "HE'S TERRIBLE AT THIS" statements. I get that you want to vent, but in a place where someone wants to have a conversation, that's not possible if someone enters the room and says "EVERYTHING YOU SAY IS WRONG, I BELIEVE X IS TRUE AND THEREFORE UNLESS YOU FIX IT I WON'T TALK TO YOU." 
The response to that is to say "WELL HE DIDN'T LISTEN TO US SO WE WON'T LISTEN TO HIM," but we really need to reset this kind of thing. Maybe we didn't communicate certain concepts better and maybe some didn't actually enter the conversation in a mature way. That's all I'm saying.

Well first of all - Q bug when leaping. Fix this please.
Using double Q's feels really bad.
Not being able to hit structures just feels bad.
Delay between double cast from Ferocity ability and normal ability feels super clunky.
1000 range feels like way too much as a detection radius. 
With the changes I feel as though he will be forced into tanky/bruiser builds. Assassin Rengar's burst is what drew me to the champion initially and building tanky for sustained battles doesn't cut the mustard for me. If I liked that kind of play style I would go spam Renekton and Trundle.  
The explanation in the patch notes about being binary is something I fully agree with, but Rengar just doesn't feel good anymore
I'll post more as I think of more. 
In playtests, Rengar was typically building an in-between (with a few players trying out assassin builds), and he was still obliterating ADCs. The 1000 range is an indicator but doesn't actually reveal him, so Rengar should go steamrolling into the fight when he wants to engage, rather than sitting right beside the ADC for a few seconds before blowing them up. Engaging should be a commitment, not just a kitty sitting on the spot for a while.

The Q not working on towers feeling bad might be a truth but do we agree that Rengar's split pushing was absolutely obnoxious without tradeoffs? If not, maybe that's where the conversation should start." 
In response to one unsatisfied Rengar player, Pwyff asked:
"So let's talk about that perceived "incompetency" in a champion change - what do you perceive Rengar to need and what do you perceive this rework to have killed. 
If you say super safe split pushing, you're going to make me sad."
He continued:

Engaging into a back line that gets alerted front eh front line from seeing a warning also he lost his as that was more then enough plenty of things can q towers 
He gets bonus movespeed in stealth, a leap out of stealth and a speed boost once he breaks stealth. All of these things speak to Rengar needing to be at least slightly crafty in approaching his engages rather than push R, right click squishy and blow them up. 
[EDIT] Gonna get some food. I get this thread is super passionate but let's assume a discussion is going to be had.

This doesn't mean everything you demand will happen, but it does mean that your concerns or pains will be heard and either should be solved by a different play approach, are actual strategic tradeoffs and design health implementations, or are genuine pain points that should be addressed by design.

Scruffy took the wheel again, commenting that current bug with Q + Leap will be fixed quickly:
"We see the Q leap bug, that will be fixed ASAP.

What about double Q feels bad specifically? The damage? The time between attacks?"
He continued:

It at very least feels that most time there is a big lag time in-between attack and q. 
It feels like release rengar when his attack speed from q wouldn't affect him until his first attack after the q
This is likely the reason that the Q is feeling sluggish to most people. It would be a good quality of life change to make the Q attack a bit faster even if it doesn't give the attack speed. Great observation."

When asked about the purpose of Rengar's ult's warning, Scruffy noted:
"The thought process here was that, with the goal of allowing opponents to react to Rengar's engage, we wanted to pursue alternate methods of increasing their reaction window without having to take it all out of his damage. The warning is meant to be a very short "Rengar is coming" moment but still allow Rengar to engage on the target."

Scruffy closed out his posting for the night by saying:
"We're getting a lot of good info and feedback so far. Expect bug fixes, QoL and balance changes in the upcoming patches. I'll check in later and respond to more of the questions."

However, Riot Jag tumbled back in to address a few more points of interest:

After reading through many comments, ranging from raging to pure insults, I realized that the community is poorly conveying their message, which I will attempt to restate here. 
Rengar is no longer viable as an assassin, and he cannot compete in the top lane. Additionally, the changes have also, arguably, weakened his jungle. 
I will briefly discuss why I truly believe each of the aforementioned: 
-Rengar relied heavily on his Q damage to assassinate, now, saying this with experience, a fed Rengar has trouble assassinating a lower level, squishy support due to the massive damage decrease (Don't even consider non-support champions, or equal level champions). 
We have definitely shifted the time-to-kill window for Rengar's assassinations more into the fighter end of the spectrum (closer to Jax than Zed, for example). He's not going to kill someone in 1-2 seconds, yes, but his damage over 4-5 seconds should be comparable to or better than the previous version while also having stronger tank stats and better stickiness.

-As far as the top lane goes, his level 2 "cheese" as some call it does about 1/4 of the other top laner's health on average, which is returned to Rengar multi-fold upon his journey back into the bushes. Other than being unable to have 'bursty' trades in his favor, he also completely lacks a consistent/reliable poke (since the e is now a skill shot). Due to the previous reasons, he can't successfully win a lane other than out farm, which isn't, in my opinion, as assassin's idea of winning lane. 
It's true that his early lane has more weaknesses than his previous iteration. We shifted some of his power away from his Level 2 cheese and spammy E-harass, but added some back in sustained trades, healing when he's behind in lane, and assistance for jungle ganks. One thing I'm curious on here is what is an assassin's idea of winning lane, especially in the top lane. When we see assassin's top lane they're generally more than happy to be able to farm against bruisers.

-Concerning the jungle, I believe he is already second-tier or less, however, the attack speed loss on his q makes camps harder to clear (excluding the damage reduction). 
Additionally, I would like to add some additonal opinions:
I can understand why his tower killing could be viewed as too strong (although some would argue that it's not since it's an integral part of the champion). Regardless, I believe that changing his q to not work against towers is a valid nerf if you believe his pushing is too strong. However, I believe that by disallowing his q to damage towers, and reducing his damage drastically, the pushing nerf was doubly-applied. 
If you feel like his pushing power is excessively weak I think that may be a fair criticism. We'd like to keep an eye on his overall power level since he has a lot of other really strong tools to aid in tower pushing (e.g. using an Empowered Q on a nearby minion for a strong AS bonus, the ult giving a good escape, etc.).

Also, having tried many different builds on my separate accounts after the patch, I have come to believe that Rengar may be viable as a tank, but cannot be viable as an assassin or high damage source of any given team.
We want him to be in a state where he can still build to be a damage threat. If that's not true, then it's something we'll address."

Refunds after ( Full ) Reworks / VUs

Here's Riot DryTheRiver , a player support lead, with a heads up that you can actually request a refund on champions and skins if you are unsatisfied with a ( full ) kit rework or a VU:
Hey everyone, 
I'd like to shed some light and clarify the above statement as it is not entirely correct: 
If a champion or skin had a graphical or kit (play style) rework after your purchase, you do indeed have the option to refund them without spending any refund tokens. However, this refund is for FULL reworks only. Buffed and nerfed champions do not count as full reworks and, as a result, are not eligible for a refund. Also, in order to be eligible for this refund, you must request a refund on a visual/design rework within 90 days after the rework. We will not be able to give you a refund beyond the initial 90 days. 
For more info, you can check out our content refund guidelines are available on the player support website at the following location: 
Hope this helps :)"
When asked if this includes Rengar and Gragas after their 4.5 changes, he confirmed:
"That's correct Kampec, in this case they do :)" 

Hope for Mage Fortune

Following his previous comments on the AP "Mage Fortune" build, ricklessabandon swung back by the thread to drop off an update and a bit of hope now that his Miss Fortune changes are out on live.
"going to bring this thread back from the dead now that i've had some time to read everyone's responses and think about them a bit. my plans for the immediate future are to: watch miss fortune on 4.5 and make balance changes as necessary, and then make adjustments for ap-scaling miss fortune. i should be able to get something in time for the 4.6 patch—we'll see how things test over the next week.

based on where she's at now i don't think it'll take much, but wanted to give you all a heads up that i'm still working on her all the same."

When asked why he was pouring time into Mage Fortune instead of other off builds like AP Xin Zhao, ricklessabandon commented:
"honest answer: because i'm working on miss fortune currently, and i like to be as thorough as i can (within reason). it's mostly a due diligence thing. if i were to work on xin zhao, i'd be equally open to talks regarding his alternate builds."

Sona Disabled for Ultra Rapid FIre PvP

As you may have noticed from the in-client warning, Sona has been disabled in URF!

Here's Brackhar with the scoop:
"Ultra Rapidly Firing Summoners! 
Thanks for taking the time to give all of your feedback for Ultra Rapid Fire! Your response has truly astounded us, and we're exceedingly happy that you're having as much fun with the mode as we had making it. 
Ultra Rapid Fire is definitely a silly experience, and it's fair to expect a wide range of power between champions in the mode. That said, when we were looking over the data today it became really clear that Sona is head and shoulders above her peers. She's currently sporting a 78% win rate in U.R.F., and her ban rate is almost just as high. She's effectively at a point where she's the default correct choice to have on any team for any composition, and her presence is both heavily skewing game outcomes and reducing the number of effective bans players can use.

Given how much of an outlier Sona is, we've opted to temporarily disable her in the PvP queue for Ultra Rapid Fire. She'll still be available to play in URF custom games and URF Co-op vs. AI (just like Ryze and Kassadin), but hopefully this will bring more variety back into the PvP experience. We get that a good bit of the appeal of Ultra Rapid Fire is finding those really imbalanced champions, but we felt that Sona was so far out of line that she was bringing the experience down.

This is the first time that we've done changes to mode balance while a featured game mode is live, and we're interested in what feedback you may have for us. There are a few additional champions that, while not at Sona levels, we're a bit concerned about, so your feedback will help us decide what action to take. Would you prefer that we favor pulling excessive champions from U.R.F. to help diversify the champion pool, or would you rather we leave the mode as is to maintain the crazy experience? We'd love to hear your thoughts! 
We hope you guys continue to enjoy Ultra Rapid Fire for the rest of the week. Thanks for helping make this mode a success!"

SKT Team skins unveiled!

Following the Relive the World Champion video and today's PBE debut of four of the skins, an official announcement regarding the upcoming SKT T1 skins was published!
"SK Telecom T1’s incredible run through the Season 3 World Championship is already legend. Now, we’re decking out some of their favorite champs in the regalia of the team that won it all.
  • Impact’s Jax
  • bengi’s Lee Sin
  • Faker’s Zed
  • Piglet’s Vayne
  • PoohManDu’s Zyra
Relive the Season 3 World Championship, here."
Interested in a better look? Check out  our  4/3 PBE Update coverage!

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