[ Update #2] Wav3Break with another update on Rengar - BTN now testing as Jungle item with mobility bonuses

Posted on at 8:57 AM by Moobeat
Update #2: Added in a few more posts from Scarizard.

Update: Added in another small post from Scarizard.

We have another update to all the Rengar changes we've been hearing about lately - Wav3Break  is back to continue discussion on Empowered Savagery, Bonetooth Necklace becoming a jungle item, and intial testing on allowing Bonetooth Necklace to build stacks off of killing numerous neutral mobs.
Continue reading for more information!

( Note: This is an on-going discussion on future Rengar changes. Be sure to read up on the previous comments here: 1, 2, 3, 45)

Here's Wav3break's latest update on the Rengar changes currently in internal testing:
"Hey everybody, just wanted to update you guys with the current testing status of our current iteration of Rengar. 
Heavy destructive testing will continue for the Empowered Savagery refunding 3 ferocity points play pattern. This past week we found that Rengar was still doing too much damage in too little of a time frame which is a problem we still need to solve within this iteration. This iteration also makes jungle Rengar incredibly resourceful as he can walk away from each creep camp with more ferocity stacks and gank lanes without as much preparation.

The big changes we will be testing this week are Bone Tooth Necklace which will now give Rengar a personalized jungle item which has a really favorable build path out of Long Sword and Hunter's Machete. The overall price of the item has stayed the same but as Scarizard said in his posts, "mini-brutalizer" - esque stats will no longer exist on BTN. BTN is now an item that gives Rengar bonuses that directly impact his mobility in the jungle and thus his overall map pressure. The current bonuses in place look something like this: 
  • 3 Stacks - Rengar gains 15% movement speed while in brush(bonus does not persist outside of brush like Nidalee's) 
  • 6 Stacks - Rengar gains 100 range on his Leap(slightly nerfed due to having access to it earlier.) 
  • 9 Stacks - Rengar retains movement speed from his Ultimate for 5 seconds after exiting his ultimate. (Rocket cat goes zooooooooom) 
The 14 stack bonus is still a pretty big grey area as we want Rengar players to reach this epic state at 14 stacks but we don't want them to do so at the cost of making his game play toxic again.

An additional mechanic we will be testing with BTN is allowing Rengar players to build stacks out of neutral monster kills. Currently the amount of neutral monster kills required to build a stack is pretty hefty, which encourages jungle Rengar to invade the enemy jungle to take camps but also hopefully interact with the enemy jungler. This mechanic is still kind of the grey area as well because it might give too many advantages to a jungle Rengar over a lane Rengar and we don't want to make laning Rengar's feel bad for purchasing this item.

If you guys have any thoughts on what epic thing Rengar should get at maximum stacks toss'em out! I look forward to the ideas you guys will give me and Scarizard!"

Scarizard also added:
"Going to be testing this iteration today - then i'll be able to elaborate more on how it went, and give you a general confidence read on where everything is. So far we're pretty signed off on the direction of the Q-Train, pending numbers tuning. 
Goals are: 
- Simplify the warning on ultimate. Whether it's short-range icon, long range VO, etc, we're going to make a decision soon on which version of the warning we want, but likely not to do both of them. 
- Heavy iteration on BTN. Already see a couple of things i'd like to see changed, would also like to respond to concerns/feedback that the item has no actual stats that would make you want to keep it end-game. I think we can fix this without saying 'flatly gives Arpen/CDR/Stuff'. Want this to be good for Lanegar as well, so paying special attention to the jungle-specific interations to see how they're playing out.Would also like to clarify that AD is not taken off of this item, and is a tuning point we can use for its efficiency.

Will post more stuff after playtests/conversations with the team and give you guys an update."

Update #2: Scarizard has tossed up several more answers to player concerns.

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IMO: I think a global VO is best for rengar. 
Nocturne I love playing against, just because of how thrilling it is when you hear DAAAAAARKNEEEEEESS. 
A similar feel for Rengar would be nice, and give more play options with how far away from the lane you decide to ult. I'd especially like it if it allows for the power to have rocket-cat-ults, like an invisible master yi, even if everyone knows I'm about to pounce.
I dig VO as our solution, but a couple of reservations about Global VO -

1. The effect isn't global. TF reveals Globally, Nocturne removes sight Globally, but Rengar's effect does not have bearing on the entire map. 
2. (and the one i personally think is a bigger deal) - Nocturne and TF put quite a bit of pressure on the map over the duration of their effects, specifically to your opponents. It's fine for toplane to be scared for ~4s during Paranoia when in reality he's ganking bottom, but is it okay for the entire map to want to change their behaviour/undergo stress for 12 seconds? 10? Can we make Rengar's ult last a satisfying or even appropriate length if everyone on the map is affected the whole time? 
3. Can't guarantee that all players will be notified/notice, as not everyone plays with sound on - but an icon or text warning is unmistakable.

I really like using VO to convey the ultimate, but making it global becomes less 'this is a cool thing we could do' and more 'this is actually dipping into the power budget of the ultimate', and i'm not confident making it global vs 'a really wide range' for VO would be worth what we may have to take from it, or the kit.

my mistake. i was referring to the true stealth. not a gimmick type. tell me one reason people wont run back to tower the moment they see the icon on their head?
Because Rengar is ghosted, and running incredibly quickly at them and can leap once he is within a range greater than some dashes. 
All testing has shown that not even once has the icon been a deterrent from Rengar reaching the target - but rather opens a possibility for them to position better. It's all about communication to the enemy of what their situation is, and if they should split (So that Rengar can only leap on one of them) or that you can ready your cooldowns/shields to support the target you suspect he'll leap on - rather than simply not having the reaction time for a stealthed instagib.

As for the test, I went 5/1/4 and it was a 20 minute surrender - and while i was not the only variable in the test, there is nothing to suggest that the increased duration/movement speed isn't more than compensation for alerting his enemies.

He also gives his team vision of your team while he's doing it...so it's not like Rengar just sits there useless. It's an incredibly warping (yet satisfying) ultimate and i'm trying to maintain the feel and strength of it as Rengar's best hunting tool without crippling its effectiveness. So far, the warning seems the best way to accomplish both, and i'm always attempting to tune it where it'll be fair for both sides."

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I like this. If the movement speed increase is as big as you say it is, then the ult changes won't matter too much when it comes to people running away to the turret or whatever. 
Could you tell us the movement speed increase? If it's big enough then Rengar will still be able to reach his target, which is sweet.
I believe i mentioned it earlier, but currently it's sitting at 10/30/50% - previously the gaps were much closer. Build was Bonetooth, Mobility, Spirit Visage, Vamp scepter before they surrendered. 
I typically don't like posting numbers because people will get attached to them, and we are always ready to buff/nerf/revert numbers and changes at a moment's notice if it's best for the character. 
Currently, we're nixing the 'minitrophy' stacks on Bonetooth for neutral kills. Created a lot of weird incentives where sometimes farming your jungle would be the best course of action until you reached your next tier, which is unfair for laning rengar.

3 stack bonus was pretty strong actually, but want to try another version - i'm pretty bad at wording it, but the gist of it is something like 'Rengar gains x (flat) movement speed out of combat. This bonus is not removed while Rengar is in brush.' Idea being he's strong while setting up the gank and while fighting in brush, but not while fighting outside of it. Might not make a difference, but i know a lot of people were missing the Flat MS all of the time. I don't agree he should have it 'all of the time' but using that MS to set up ganks and chase folks is aligned with our goals for BTN.

(Should also mention that Q2 giving Ferocity gave him a lot of speed in the jungle, constantly resetting his Q2 to take down bigger monsters - was generally pretty smooth and i liked how it was playing out)"
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Can you please tell us what plans, if any, exist for Battle Roar? I know people have suggested giving it AA reduction, attack speed reduction, fear, short stealth, tenacity bonus/cc removal. Just want to know what of those look like they could work, or what you guys have come up with on your own.
I've reverted Battle Roar to Armor/Mr for the time being. I completely acknowledge that the community doesn't care about its durability function and feedback has been overwhelming that it should likely be a selfish offensive buff or a debuff to enemies - this is still on the table, but it isn't altogether clear what that mechanic should be that takes it place. I would love to ship Rengar changes with a new Battle Roar mechanic, but it isn't 100% necessary that it occurs.

I consider Battle Roar WIP and plan to nix the mechanic if anything else arises that makes more sense, especially if it can align with what the community wants from the ability. Generally against Tenacity/Cleanse, would rather have it be conditional based on the champion/number of champions hit. CC is probably not going to happen. Self-empowering beastman yell or demoralizing shout type things are what i'm lookin' at, tho.

I do have a question for you Scarizard: How defense-tilted will Rengar have to build? A hunter with a very strong thematic focus of attacking feels very wrong built tanky. I want to build super stabby and a visage rush makes me concerned ;_;
I built Visage that game simply due to BTN's AD/Bonuses putting me ahead of the curve, and wanting to itemize Tankier (As a jungler) to fit my team's needs. We had a Kha'Zix, Ezreal, Xerath and Nami - so if i didn't get big, no one would. Damage items are still totally good to go on Knifecat, and his role will still be as a damage dealer - but i'd note that Only Rengar's core build on Live always has a Spirit Visage in it due to W2 Synergy and CDR. As it's changed/buffed for 3.10 (with the inclusion of Spectre's Cowl), it felt like a nartual buy.

Well, i just hope you dont tune down the AD Too much on this. One of the few reasons many players get this item is its cost efficient ad stats, especially for top lane.
2 other concerns, if you could spare the time please! 
1. Will the 'mov speed in brush' be a BTN exclusive passive? Or is rengar gaining this as part of his kit? (please see if you can put it in the kit plz :3 )
2. Any word on E being a skillshot?
AD on BTN is actually buffed, simply due to the Recipe being Long Sword + Hunters + 100g - it kind of has to have 10 AD from the Sword alone. 
1. Movespeed in brush or whatever the mechanic shakes out to be will be a BTN Exclusive passive, though it's intended to be the first tier one and therefore easily obtained, as you'll be utilizing it to get even more trophies. 
2. E being a skillshot is largely benched. It's not clear what the actual gains of it would be, and melee skillshots (Kha'Zix, Skarner, Shyvana) are generally not fun/awkward to use.

2 concerns if you could Scarizard: 
1. You said Rengar's ult would be looking at a lower cooldown. Since its semi-global, has this decision be reverted :/ ? 
2. The mov speed scaling you posted: 10-50%, can you explain why its so, radical from one lv to another? I know the numbers will likely change but it dosent seem to me 10% is much, but 50% just seems over the top.
More likely that the Cooldown will stay high, but then get lower. In a perfect world where we're getting the gameplay/counterplay we want, Rengar having access to this tool often wouldn't be a big issue. This is closely tied to your 2nd point about the disparate MS%'s as well - Rengar's Thrill of the Hunt is a super game-warping ultimate, and at its highest strength at Rank 1 where other lanes have less access to Pink Wards/Oracles (the effectiveness of these tools to put the brakes on a Rengar gank is already dubious as best), and so we like to limit it so lanes aren't under constant pressure. Destiny, Stand Aside, Paranoia, and Agony's Embrace as well as many other early game ultimates have this type of scaling to avoid insane snowballing and frustration in the beginning stages.

Similarly, as a game progresses we can jack up the power in the ultimates, because mapwide movement isn't contained simply to regular lanes - so Rengar can stabrocket his way across the entire rift."

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