Follow ups to Rengar and Yorick update discussions.

Posted on at 5:32 AM by Moobeat
Yesterday's big Rengar and Yorick posts have stirred up a lot of new ideas and both teams have posted several times, continuing the discussion and presenting some nifty new ideas.
Continue reading for more discussion on Scarizard & Wav3Break's ideas for Rengar and more ( possibly the last for a while ) from Xelath on Yorick.

Follow up on Rengar discussion

( Click here for yesterday's discussion, including tentative ideas to fix Rengar up )

After catching up on all the feedback throughout the day, Scarizard had a couple of notes before diving into more discussion:
"Trying to balance catching up on posts and doing actual work - a few points: 
1. Please remember that the changes to Q are in testing, and that the lack of an effect on Q is placeholder. It might be returned to %AS on Q and ??? on Q2. Previously we had 'If Savagery strikes a champion below 50% life, gain an additional ferocity point' which we had some pros and cons. When judging the changes understand that the goal is to lower the burst potential of these two spells and that shifting them into tools for sustained damage is a win for Rengar's balance overall - but i don't intend to leave either part of this skill bare. 
2. Some people seem to like the counterplay we're introducing to his ultimate, and some of you don't. I'm open to suggestions here - but Rengar sorely needs more counterplay on this skill for it to retain the strength it has, let alone gain more. Give me your thoughts on how'd you like to see this done.

Gonna go grab some food, but i'm at least caught up on this threads' posts."
He continued, discussing Rengar's ultimate and throwing out an interesting idea for Bonetooth Necklace - making it build out of Hunter's Machete.
"One of the issues with making the VO global is that Thrill of the Hunt itself isn't global, unlike Paranoia or Destiny. One idea i'm going to try is making Rengar's reveal radius very high - likely 4-5k - and then just playing VO for anyone within that range. So if you ult from the river heading top, midlane or the jungle might hear you - but if you ult going for bottom lane, top doesn't need to be worried from across the map. 
I don't think there's ever anything as 'too much' counterplay. Solid counterplay means we can just up the effects to increase satisfaction - Nami's Aqua Prison is a good example of this. Instead of making it easier to hit, we gave it a higher reward for landing it so that while you weren't certain to land your bubble you would get a generally higher payout. 
Same follows through for Rengar. We could give his ultimate Evelynn stealth detection; we can give it a lot of the warning play we're talking about here - and then we can always pump the power and impact of the spell because of it. In it's current iteration, Thrill of the Hunt lasts 12 seconds and the MS% is 30/40/50. Rengar's pretty much booking it across the map and stabbing people in the face left it right - and that's only possible because people get some warning that he's coming.

On another note, how would people feel about a Bonetooth that built out of Long Sword + Hunter's Machete + 100g?"
As for that last idea and Hunter's Machete not being available in other map modes, he noted:
"I believe we can special-case items for multiple map modes. Tear/Manamune/Archangel's Staff have different versions of them on Dom/TT, so i imagine we could enable something like that."

Wav3Break also chimed in, clearing the air on the team's intentions on Rengar:
"So there seems to be some confusion and misinterpretation with our intentions on Rengar.
From my 2nd post: 
Rengar will always have burst due to the nature of his ability mechanics, but we need to tune it to be healthier in early stages of the game and give him some extra stuff to make him flow into late game scenarios where he should be able to select his target of choice, possibly be in the middle of the enemy team and not necessarily only fulfill the role of "I kill your squishy and die right after/I can only kill your squishy and am useless to my team if I fail." 
We are not going to destroy his burst nor are we tuning him into a tanky bruiser. You will still be able to knife cat ambush people, but once again, the challenge for us is to make that pattern healthy, fun and balanced. This undoubtedly means we have to take some power away from his burst, whether its damage or execution speed. At the same time, we are also able to use the room created by this change to give him cooler effects that won't force Rengar into his current "if I fail to kill someone squishy on my first Leap from Ult, I am useless" and "suicide dive bomb/kamikaze" play pattern.

As a final thought, I would just like to stress this point again: burst damage on a long duration true stealth character with no counter play, no warning, and no window to react is not okay. It is not fun to play against, it is not healthy for our game and it completely warps the game for enemy players. This pattern's existence in its current form on Rengar's kit limits our ability to make this character healthy and that is why it has to go. With it gone we have the room to make him into the true predator and hunter who doesn't just jump in and die after taking down his prized prey."

Scarizard also replied to a few more summoner concerns on the new Rengar ideas:
"Quote:
Nocturne ult isn't Global either.... I have a feeling you're not listening all that well to what a lot of people have been saying. Having a global notification that Rengar is stealthed gives me people warning that he most likely going to jump on somebody, and if you happen to be that person who's overextended/in a bad spot, you better prepare for that. I fail to see how that would be a bad thing. It accomplishes the wanted effect of notifying everyone and at the same time, doesn't let the one person you're actually going for be like, oh he's after me, better back out of this.
Nocturne's Paranoia is global - you remove vision from every member of the enemy team with a button. That's a global. What i'm talking about is changing Rengar's vision range from 2/3/4k per rank of ultimate to 4-5k so that it still has an extremely wide threat radius, similar to champions like Ziggs or Lux in their influence range.

Quote:

In the current iteration of his ult, how far can Rengar effectively travel to track down a target? Can he exceed the range of his ult from where he cast it? And if do, do enemies hear the VO once they get into the range of it?
Pretty far - Rengar's vision range originates from his body, so it's impossible for him to ever activate it and exceed his own vision range. Currently, people only hear VO if they are within his champion sight radius (around 1k or so) when he activates the ultimate. If he activates the ultimate while he's 'on his way' the opponent won't hear his VO play - but would see the particle above their head once he reached the appropriate range.

Quote:

Leave him. Nothing wrong with triple Q; it's fair to reward someone for actually playing the game well.
I'd like to address this. Triple Q with Rengar isn't like Zed landing double Razor Shurikens or Lulu Glitterlancing multiple people, or even like Kha'Zix leaping perfectly for a multi-kill. Once you know how to do it, you know how to do it.

Triple Q'ing isn't what makes Rengar rengar. Stalking prey, making decisions on which Ferocity Bonus to use for the right situation, leaping out of brush and killing someone, or flanking and jumping someone for an allied takedown? Those are things that make Rengar who he is. You're all right that this was intended functionality when it was put in the game - but even Classick agrees that it was also a mistake. Frontloading 500% of your AD in less than a second on a target of your choosing when no one can see you coming is just not something that's okay.

I want him to kill people - Rengar's a damage dealer and that's what he does. I would just like him to kill people over 5 or 6 seconds than 1 to 2.

I want him to inspire fear into his opponents. I don't want him to inspire rage."
He finished out the night's conversation by mentioning that he has also discussed things with OnlyRengar, a Diamond 1 player who has recently seen critiquing the new changes on the front page of /r/leagueoflegends.
"So i lied earlier when i said i was going to get food - i've just been reading posts and trying to respond. 
Had a good talk with OnlyRengar, got a couple of ideas as well as getting some from the thread. I'm going to Tenerife, Spain for a few days starting Thursday morning with a group of Rioters for the EU Pro Player Conference, but Wav3break will be here manning the thread and updating you on our iterations. 
For those of you who don't like the changes, i still thank you for your feedback. I don't want to ruin Rengar. I just want him to be more healthy for the game as a whole with appropriate counterplay so that he can be a generally better experience for our game.

Gonna go grab that food now - i might poke around later on before i pass out. Thanks again for the feedback, friends."
Follow up on Yorick

( This is a continuing series of developement for Yorick's rework. Check out the rest of the discussion: 1, 2 , 3, 4, 5)

Building off yesterday's momentum, Xelnath crept back on to the forums with another kit idea for Yorick.
"Update Logic: 
* Shovels are cool
* Hard CC on bruisers is not a good idea
* Some healing in lane is fine if the enemy can counter it
* Shovels are still cool."

As usual, he then addressed several concerns about the new kit:

[ Source ]
"1. They attack nearby units. If Yorick runs away, they disengage and follow him.
2. When you press Q ghouls will "stick" to the units they are attacking for another 2 sec.
3. The lowest health ones lose 10% hp per second. I guess. I have no idea yet.
4. Don't know. Don't care yet. It's a feel thing.
5. Could be 10/15/20% of all damage you take is shared or 5-10% per ghoul out. No idea yet. He should be harder to kill when all of his ghouls are out and alive.
6. 20% aoe reduction is standard on minion champions."
[ Source ]
"Quote:
Also can we have the ult give a small bit of time where the ghouls don't start losing HP, or at least don't start decaying?
Yeah, that's fair. While "Ghoul Army" mode is active (5 sec) the ghouls don't start losing hp."

When asked if Yorick's ult could summon something that wasn't ghouls for his ult, Xelnath noted:
"Possibly. Its likely the army that Yorick conjures with R will be some form of unique units, rather than Ghouls. I'm just leaving them ghouls for now to see how that feels."

Speaking of ghouls, he then elaborated a bit on his ideas for ghouls:
"So I'm imagining all ghouls work like this: 
Spawn as blue ghouls. Blue ghouls are guardian ghouls and reduce damage you take each.

W turns ghouls into green kamikaze baneling ghouls. More fragile, but blow up on death. 
E turns ghouls into red lifesteal ghouls. 
R spawns a bunch of blue ghouls."

After all leading a discussion reaching nearly 400 pages on the forums, Xelnath sat down and restated the current problems with Yorick and the goals he hopes to achieve with a kit update:

"It sounds like its time for a refresher post on our goals and direction. 
What is Yorick on live? 
Yorick is a melee bruiser/fighter who summons ghouls which provide collateral damage. His hallmark qualities are uncounterable lifesteal sustain and the ability to allow an ally to fightfor an extended period of time when they should die. 
What are the major problems with Yorick? 
From listening to the post in this thread and confirming it with our own experiences and design insights, Yorick feels like an counterless champion. His ghouls provide an illusion of counterplay which punishes you heavily if you actual kill them. His kit is heavily propped up by unpreventable lifesteal/sustain. Finally, his ultimate is a cluster**** of unoptimizable use cases, highly unsatisfying in terms of both personal use, except in ambushe cases and drains an immense amount of power due to its ability to clone an allied ADC.

Where are we taking Yorick? 
Yorick is going to be a melee champion, who commands minions as a ranged extension of his power and influence. He can command those minions to move, attack and create opportunities for him. Yorick will be a tough champion who attacks opponents with his shovel, but is primarily about using his minions to influence the battle and heal himself.

What are we explicitly removing? 
Yorick should not feel like a brick wall in lane. Due to the disposable damage his minions bring, he cannot get free health without being at risk. Similarly, where possible, we're removing invisible power from Yorick, instead preferring bonus mechanics or visible effects created by his ghouls.

What should Yorick gain out of these changes? 
Yorick should be a unique style of play that centers around manipulating and using disposable units. This should allow him to have stronger "high" moments along with clearer windows of vulnerability where he needs to play defensively. While none of these kits are final, the hope is that Yorick can provide a form of fighter that can opt to play safely from a distance, creating windows of opportunity where his allies can capitalize or play a riskier close-range style where ghouls provide extra damage and all-in capabilities. 
Will you actually be able to do all of this? 
Possibly not. It won't happen right away, and its possible we may change these goals as development continues. This is the nature of development. Your goals, decisions and iterations change rapidly.

What I will guarantee is that I'll do my best to see that a year from now, the uncounterable, frustrating, infinitely-sustaining Yorick character will be a relic of the past and a frightening gravedigger leading a squad of the undead into the fray replaces him."

He followed that up by noting that he's finally ready to start working on the kit rather than just brainstorming:
"I'm think I'm ready to prototype this kit now, and testing will show us the holes and directions we want to shoot for next. It will probably be a few months before I have anything solid to report back on, but I'll update this thread as changes occur."

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