New Iteration of Rengar's Ultimate
( Note: This is an on-going discussion on future Rengar changes. Be sure to read up on the previous comments here: 1,2,3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
Scarizard has returned with even more discussion on his tentative Rengar changes, this time coming prepared with a new iteration of his ultimate that includes stealth again!
"Hey dudes, sorry for going mostly silent this week - had a lot to get done and i don't like to post when i know i won't have time to follow up with y'all (this is why last week's post came on a Friday evening so i had all weekend to keep talking)
So i'm likely going to format this horrendously because i'm at home and don't have a screencap of the tooltip, but here's the new idea for Rengar's ultimate:
Thrill of the Hunt
Hunt: Rengar activates his Predatory instincts, gaining % movement speed and vision of all nearby enemy champions. During this time, Rengar also generates up to 5 Ferocity and his first basic attack will cause him to leap. Lasts (Long Duration) or until Rengar uses an ability/leaps.
After a few seconds, Rengar may choose to reactivate Thrill of the Hunt to enter Stalk.
Stalk: Rengar loses all bonus movement speed from Thrill of the Hunt, but enters Stealth. Lasts (Shorter Duration) or until Rengar takes offensive action.
If i can clarify more, let me know. The basics are that Rengar players get to choose which is best for the situation - to Speedcat for a chase or cleanup? or Stealthcat for an ambush or otherwise awesome juke? I'm excited about this version because it has a lot of flexibility in what Rengar can do throughout the game (by retaining Higher % MS than is on live via Hunt, but retaining the Stealth Ambush in Stalk) but doesn't let you just hit R and run without being smart about it.
Bonus Question!- Consuming Ferocity on cast is still something i want to do, but i'd want to find a better bonus you get for 'Empowering' your Ultimate rather than duration. Suggestions? I anticipate a lot of '+Damage and +Stealth' time, but i'm open to hearing what you guys have to say.As a follow up, he answered several summoner questions, concerns, and suggestions on this latest interation:
Let me know what you guys think, and sorry for the delay!"
Change it to not be "a few seconds." There should be a short delay like .5 seconds between activation so people don't turn on stealth without meaning to, but "a few seconds" is too long.
This is something that can be toyed with, but the idea here is that the Stealth from Stalk activation has no delayed fade time like Live (where damage causes the fade time to increase). Basically if you catch a Rengar out and he ults, either A. He's gonna book it the whole way, in which case you can see him the whole time or B. He has about seconds of running/juking he needs to do before he has access to his instant stealth.
Again, the intricacies of how/when he stealths is tunable, but i'd like very much for there to be a delay between the two.
I like this. Majorly.
When do we finally get to play with it? Can't wait :)
EDIT: Does Rengar entering Stealth/approaching in Stealth give some kind of warning to the enemy?
Or, make Rengar's Stealth like Eve Stealth, making him visible if he enters a certain distance (Leap distance?) to an enemy champion? That way, stealth could stay up longer to evade wards?
Assuming you still can Leap out of Stalk, that is. Can you?
I've posted in one of the main-page edits why it's unlikely that we'd give him Evelynn Stealth - but yes, you can still Leap out of Stalk. From Rengar's Passive: While in brush or in stealth, Rengar gains bonus attack range and his attacks cause him to leap at his target.
Like the idea. Great trade off. But I have a question. After the stealth ends will the movement speed turn back on or does triggering the stealth end the ultimate entirely?
As for an empowered bonus, why not give him a steroid like:
Empowered: Upon activating thrill of the hunt Rengar gains +x AD and +x% Attack Speed for each stack of Ferocity consumed. Lasts for x seconds after Thrill of the Hunt ends.
Lasting after the ult ends allows him to actually take advantage of it, of course :)
Once you activate Stalk, that's it. Any of the duration you had in Hunt is now gone - you can maximize this in a long-rage engagement (Use hunt to traverse great distance, Stalk at the end) but in cases where you'll Hunt, run at them and have a good portion of Hunt left, your decision to Stalk must be weighed againt using the duration of that MS. You don't lose Predator Vision though - it's just the movement speed.Continuing:
As for that bonus, it's possible - except that he already gets quite a bit of attack speed, and builds AD. It's not saying that we couldn't do it - AS fits within the paradigm of of less burst more sustained, but i'd want to hear more and brainstorm before i defaulted to just 'damage output'. I'd hate to make any of Rengar's spells hit less hard just because he has a steroid on his ult."
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my feedback, I really appreciate that you're listening to us :) Anyways, I absolutely agree about the cons to the AD/AS steroid. I wouldn't want to see his Q lose power just because he gets a huge damage boost with his ult :P.
How about this one as a possibility:
Empowered: Rengar gains extra range on his leap based on how many stacks of Ferocity he consumed.
I think this would allow him to pull off some incredible leap jukes or catch those really slippery ADCs that think they've seen the last of the knifecat.
One of the reasons we don't do things like different spell ranges that are non-ultimate (Zac's E is a recent example of where we've intentionally broken this rule) is that your enemies have no idea how many Ferocity points, if at all you've burned. So if you're in Hunt mode and just booking it, how do i know when to use my disengage spell? How will i know when you're about to leap?
I'd like to make the bonus something that Rengar-only kind of cares about. Duration fit that bill and i'm happy to go back to it, i'm just opening it up to see if there's anything we can do. Damage incentives make you feel like you never want to ult UNLESS you're 5-stacked, so making it too much of the ult's power makes the optimization point feel necessary. Ideally, this feels like a thematic/fun bonus but something you could live without.
Okay, here's a crazy idea that might be a bit OP and a bit crazy and perhaps too situational, but it sounds cool so hear me out:
Thrill of the Hunt Ferocity Bonus: Big Game-If Rengar achieves a kill or assist within a certain time span of Thrill of the Hunt, Rengar gains ANOTHER Bonetooth Necklace trophy.
Issue is for people that aren't using Bonetooth Necklace it doesn't really benefit them...there could be another benefit with that that makes it worth it though.
Really cool that Rengar could ever double-up on Trophy Gain, but i wonder about the implications of when/how. I'm unsure if Rengar (A champ who on Live is already approaching mechanical overload) could stand the complexity, but in a perfect world where we could do whatever we wanted, i'd want to see a 'revenge' mechanic. Basically you lose a stack when you die, but if you kill the person who last killed you, you'd take back the trophy that 'dropped' and a new one - this would reset each death you had and you'd probably only get it once - but it would definitely be interesting. Unlikely that it'd happen, but i'll keep my eyes open for Big Game passive.
I've had this idea as well but shyed away from implementing it first because ideally whatever thing the bonus provides doesn't really have the power budget to be super necessary - i'd hate for people to use their ult, and then realize they wanted the option to stalk but then didn't have the foresight to build enough ferocity.
I've already sync'd the delay on Activating Stalk and reaching 5 Ferocity - i've definitely had the same thought you have that going into Stalk would cost you the 5 Ferocity, but seeing as i want this to be a low-duration Stealth, fitting another cycle of Ferocity Generation into the Stealth seems ill-advised. While in Stealth, you have to be opportunistic and prepared. I wouldn't want someone to be forced to leap in Stealth without their 5-stack ready.
Not saying this wouldn't ever happen, but i don't see the particular gains of it as of now. The biggest win here i think is syncing the time window you have to enter Stalk with your Ferocity Gen, as it provides two sources of visual feedback (5s CD window on R, and your Resource Bar) as an indicator of when you can re-activate R.
First off all, thanks for being with us again Scarizard :)
This ultimate change looks really awesome and I'd probably like it but I have one concern:
Does Rengar REALLY need to lose ALL of the bonus MS when entering stealth?
Couldn't it just be...lower? Like if it's 30%/40%/50% normally, couldn't it be 10/20/30? (or 10/15/20 if too strong)
No ms seems rather lackluster to me but oh well, gotta try it first before saying anything :P
I could see myself going as low as 10%, but i've there's always been a dissonance to me of 'I'M INVISIBLE' and 'I'M RUNNING REALLY FAST' - if he ends up needing a very, very low MS then obviously i'll give it but for first pass i want to be firm about the tradeoffs he's getting."
He continued, fielding a question concerning Rengar's split push ability with this new ult:
I think keeping the core of the ult the same and just making it 'do more' in terms of target selection is the smarter option.
Also, again dealing with the whole "unstoppable splitpush kitty destroys turrets and then ults out, maybe circling back for the kill" would it be smart for Rengar's ult MS bonus to build up instead of instantly be at full power? I still feel that all the changes just make super splitpush kitty REALLY powerful.
Possible, but there are many ways to combat this. Q no longer damage towers - or, Q does hit towers but doesn't gain the 3 Ferocity or Attack Speed from towers.Looking for feedback on Super Minions
Also, Hunt's MS can ramp. Stalk providing no MS and a shorter duration also means that if he stealths after you find him splitpushing, you can actually fan out and catch him when he reappears.
Not concerned about this. There are more levers than even these that can make things less terrible in a world of gigasplitpushrengar, and i'm willing to do any one of them since they don't really hit his -actual- power."
Xelnath is seeking summoner feedback on Super Minions!
"Hey guys,Try by the thread on NA and share your thoughts!
So I'm about elbows deep in the guts of league of legends right now. While mucking about in here, I've noticed some things that seem odd.
The result of this is that cannon and super minions path awkwardly around the other minions. This seems odd and unnecessary to me. Is there some value here that I'm missing or would this just be a good thing to change?
- Super Minions are melee, but spawn behind the caster minions
- Cannon Minions are shorter range than caster minions, but spawn after them as well
- When the inhibitors respawn, there's still two waves of Super Minions coming down the wave
Similarly, doesn't it feel strange that inhibitors respawning actually means "keep defending for 60 sec" instead of "okay, go on offense again?""
Lucian Dev AMA on 8/27*
Be sure to check /r/leagueoflegends on Tuesday the 27th for an Ask Me Anything with the devs who worked on and created Lucian!
"On August 26th, sit down with the art, story and design devs responsible for Lucian, the Purifier, as they answer your questions on reddit about the next ranged attacker to hit the Fields of Justice.
Prime your questions and join us on August 26th to learn more about this agile and punishing marksman."Vi has big fists
Replying to a summoner requesting a fancy Vi skin with or without her big fists, ricklessabandon left a reminder about how important the silhouette of a champion is.
"so, the thing about vi is that her gloves are so large on her base that we probably won't be able to make a skin that loses that silhouette. the great part of that is that players can recognize vi quickly/easily (in game and otherwise), but the trade off is that skin concepts just don't look/feel right in game without massive gloves even if the illustrations look amazing.Ohmikegoodness kickin' it Lee Sin Style.
basically, while vi could totally get a classy/elegant skin sometime in the future, it will almost certainly come with giant fists."
Ohmikegoodness is back with another animation reference, this time for Muay Thai Lee Sin's R!
I may have a striking resemblance to the new Pool Party Lee Sin since I posed for the splash... but did you know I also did the motion reference for his Muay Thai Skin Ultimate? :D
Shoquistador was nice enough to hold the shield for me but we didn't need it... :)"